thefivetownsquizleague.myfastforum.org

Forum Administration · Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Suggestions

You will see that I have put a number of subject headings into this new forum, but if there are any others you can think of that deserve a heading of their own then please let me know.

Simon

Guest · Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: suggestions

Just a thought, but maybe there could be a heading for the FORUM itself: for problems, difficulties, help needed or even praise about it. It is not as straightforward as the other one. Initially, visually it appears more complicated because of everything being in subcategories. This is not a criticism but just an observation. It will probably take more getting used to than the other one for some (or maybe its just me Question

). I do like it but it, but must admit, it was slightly confusing at first as the Forums I use are akin to the old FTQL one.
Just a thought
thanks
Debby

Official Simon · Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: Thanks

Okay, good point, point taken and noted.
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The worst ever contestant in the history of Mastermind...apparently

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

A good-looking new forum, so I'm impressed.

To be honest though, I never thought there was anything wrong with the old forum, except that it didn't seem to attract the level of debate and interest that it deserved.

Part of the reason for this, in my opinion, was the defensive stance taken by "the administration" against anything considered a criticism. Strange, as virtually all posts from "us members" were intended to find solutions and improve matters.

This defensive paranoia then bizarrely developed into censorship of certain individuals, not for being slanderous, rude, sexist, racist etc etc, which is fair enough, but rather for not giving their real names. Huh ? Bear in mind that I think it was one of the "quiz league two", "chocolate teapot" who came up with the great resolution to the aborted matches cock-up, for which he/she received no thanks at all. Just a ban !!

So, I would ask that the administration try harder to canvas opinions and embrace suggestions, rather than stifle debate with flippant and dismissive comments. There are close on a hundred people who participate in this excellent quiz league every week, and presumably enjoy doing so, so if steps can be taken to improve things even more, let's take them.

Guest · Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: criticism

I must say a thankyou to Mr Potato. I certainly agree and empathise with one of your comments.
I have recently being feeling paranoid about the level of criticism I received from certain members of the committee (not all of members I must add) and was thinking I was alone in this......an outcast for having opinions that did not sit well with some people. The replies were at times neither helpful or constructive. But now I know I am not alone in my wish for this league to be the best it can...so I will thankyou again Peter for having the courage to speak out.
Keep it up!!!

Official Simon · Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Nonsense

To say that Chocolate Teapot received a ban for making a good suggestion is utter nonsense. Both CT and Interloper and whoever else, are unwelcome for one simple reason, refusing to be identified. This is an FTQL forum policy and if you don't like it you don't have to use it. All you have to do it anything that makes it clear who you are, like for instance putting your email address on your forum registration or using your real name as your username.

It doesn't matter how many good suggestions you make if you use a pseudonym or in any other way disguise your identity, you'll be removed for that fact alone.

You censor your identity, we'll censor you. No apology for this policy.
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The worst ever contestant in the history of Mastermind...apparently

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

A fairly predictable response there from "The Official Simon", I think you'll agree !!

To put you straight, I did not say that Chocolate Teapot received a ban for making a good suggestion.

If you care to re-read, "This defensive paranoia then bizarrely developed into censorship of certain individuals............for not giving their real names."

Whatever. The fact remains that it was an excellent suggestion which resolved the aborted second division matches cock-up.

I just hope this pettiness does not discourage others from making suggestions and giving opinions that are not necessarily those of "the management" !!

Guest · Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: re-predictable!!!

here here Mr Potato!!!

Guest · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: Uncomfortable posts

Why not delete all posts which administrators don't like. Never mind how much thought and effort has gone in to them, just take them out and put up some excuse like "Ah- for some reason unbeknowenst to us, all posts critical of the comiteeeeeeee have been lost "at random" by a computer with the accuracy of an on-form Laser Guided Ronnie O'Sullivan with lane bumpers flanking the paths to the pockets".

Next: either don't reply to this post or say "Well all posts in the same thread were lost, for or against, therefore that PROVES your a twit Steve"

Official Simon · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: Lost posts

I am the only person who can get into Forum Administration on this free forum, which is a separate entity from the website provider. I had not been on the forum or even looked at it since the end of the season until two or three weeks ago when someone told me that vast swathes of posts had disappeared, some of which could be seen as critical and therefore maybe censorship was taking place.

Being a free forum, I am not sure whether or not the providers can be contacted for technical support, but I will look into it. In the meantime, Steve and everybody else who has spotted this can have my absolute assurance, using any sureties you care to name, that this is a surprise to us and we do not know how it has happened. I am sure you will notice that it appears to be entire sections that have disappeared, not just selected posts. Maybe there is a limit on the number of posts on free forums such as this, but that's conjecture, I don't really know.

Also, you will know that our policy of non-censorship is mentioned in the conditions of use both on this forum and on the FTQL website link and again, you have my word, as the only person who can control forum administration (unless someone else has gained an entry maybe), that nothing of this nature has taken place. Our only censorship policy regards people who won't reveal or actively disguise their true identity and this has been discussed at length in the past. And of course it's not those people whose post have disappeared, because by nature of the policy, these bogus identities have already been disappeared themselves.

Simon Curtis - Forum Administration.
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The worst ever contestant in the history of Mastermind...apparently

Guest · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:52 am Post subject:

Thanks Simon,

Sorry for the innuendo - I know it's a cheap shot and perhaps I shouldn't do it.

I do get thoroughly hacked off with spending a lot of time thinking about, writing and checking my posts, and believe it or not, am largely proud of them. I like these message boards, in that it is like a precisely minuted conversation, and one can always refer back, which seems better than "He said this, he said that".

With Quizzing's censorship, 123quiz being lost entirely once and down again now, I guess I am just feeling jumpy to see many hours of my time disappearing.

You, of course, can only speak from your own perspective. I accept your last post entirely, nevertheless it does not preclude mischief making of some sort (Neither does it prove it of course).

We can all be guilty of innuendo

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

A suggestion, relating to the enforced "winter break" coming the way of all first division teams.

There are two blank Mondays for first division teams, on Monday 7th and Mon 14th Jan, as the second division catch up on their games.

Presumably, these questions will still be set by Darren for the second division matches, so how about putting them to use for the first division teams too. So, how about ............

1. We could arrange friendly matches between ourselves. Or......
2. How about a 15-to-1 night, for hopefully at least 15 first division quizzers (plus anybody else who wants to join in) using Darren's questions. Or.......
3. An individual written "exam" with Darren's questions, lasting 45 mins or so. Or..........
4. A pairs competition with Darren's questions (a la Handicap Cup Final).

Call me sad (okay, okay), but to me, any of these ideas would keep the season going, make good use of Darren's excellent questions, provide a good evening's quizzing entertainment, and also raise extra funds for the League.

If this appeals, or anybody else has other ideas how to make use of these blank weeks (and Darren's questions), feel free to speak up.........

Delilahcat · Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:27 am Post subject:

If you're sad Peter, so am I! All excellent suggestions, I for one would be happy to do any of these.
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Dinna fesh, grab life by the nuts

Giotto · Quiz Virgin Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 21

Count me in as well
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Barry Simmons

Delilahcat · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject:

Any decisions on Peter's excellent suggestions - if noboby else wants to play we'll be happy to give your team a game Peter.

Diane
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Dinna fesh, grab life by the nuts

Forum Administration · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject:

We've got a friendly organised Diane, against a Doncaster League team home and away for the two weeks, but thanks anyway.

Delilahcat · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject:

Oh right.

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Dinna fesh, grab life by the nuts

Neil Aspland · Quiz Virgin Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 27

An interesting question raised by this is why the winter break is forced on the First Division teams, i.e. why do we have more teams in the Second Division than the First? It seems that the reward for being in the First Division is that you don't get to play as many 5TQL games. This alone would be a good enough reason for Second Division teams to refuse to be promoted. And why are the two blank weeks consecutive, when they could be slotted in one week at a time? Combined with the Christmas break and the Cup matches, the result is that there are no fewer than five consecutive Mondays without First Division matches.

Assuming the composition of the 5TQL remains the same, can we therefore promote two teams and relegate one (or even promote three and relegate two) at the end of this season?

Neil.

Andrew Lyman · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:33 am Post subject:

Firstly Neil, there are four blank weeks for first division teams, not two.
This is because there is one more team in Division 2 than there is in Division 1. Because Division 2 has an odd number of teams, each Division 2 team has two bye weeks as well.

With an odd number of teams in the league, one of the divisions has to have an odd number of teams, which means the other division has to have rest weeks. Promoting two and relegating one would simply lead to Division 1 teams having two bye weeks instead, and Division 2 having two rest weeks around Christmas and Easter. This may be what some want, of course.

I'm sure that, should the number of constituent teams remain the same for 2008-09, this is something that can be discussed at the AGM.

And as for Peter's idea upthread about something to fill in the blank weeks for Division One teams - I thought his suggestion was an excellent one. It came a little too late to be arranged for this break, apparently - but I'm sure that we can arrange something for the March rest weeks.

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

.........Coming back to the "blank weeks for first division teams" issue then, how about this idea...........

For Monday 7th April, how about a Handicap Table Quiz for all first division teams, plus any other teams who want to take part.

Using Darren's questions which he will have set for the second division games, how about giving every team a handicap, which we can now set as the first division league season has finished :- Wanderers off "scratch", other teams' scores to be calculated.

One point per question (8 rounds of 8 questions, plus the 2 "ten point" rounds) should provide a meaty quiz, but last no longer than the usual Monday night. Read out by an able question reader, preferably on a microphone, 30 secs per question, marked at half time, then full time, by the other teams.

If not enough teams, we could make it a pairs competition.

We could also throw in a raffle, and raise a bit of cash.

Voila.

Any takers ? All we need is a suitable venue, and some willing participants ! Oh, and the questions !

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

Picking up Steve Kidd's suggestions from another thread........

1. A Mastermind competition. A lot of work to compile sets of fair, balanced questions, but I would make one in, if enough other people were interested. I would much prefer, however, the re-introduction of a "15-to-1" competition, as it's more intense, no in-built bias, and more fun ! However, I wouldn't want either at the expense of the excellent Pairs Competition on Handicap Cup night. If you've never attended, I urge you to turn up this year. It's very well set, and the result is by no means a foregone conclusion.

2. An earlier start to the season, to end before the May Bank holidays start. To this end, to reduce the number of bye weeks to a minimum. If there are still 14 teams next season, to make one division of 6 teams (playing each other 3 times, totalling 15 weeks), and the other 8 teams (playing each other twice, totalling 14 weeks). This season, with 2 divisions of 7 teams. we have all had three bye weeks, which costs us all more money, and lengthens the league season to 18 weeks.

3. Champions League ? A couple of FTQL teams play in the Wakefield Summer League, so if you fancy putting a team into a higher standard league, and playing new teams, speak to Simon, as he is the Secretary of this league too !

4. Increase the number of league teams. Excellent idea, a no-brainer. The trend recently has been that more teams are packing in, and the recruitment net has strictly speaking gone beyond the boundaries of the Five Towns. So, efforts to bring new teams in are very welcome.

5. What do we do to stop people/teams leaving ? It's my opinion that quite a few people (and so teams) drop out as our standard, especially at the top of the first division, is very high. People join in the first place as they enjoy quizzes, either on the telly or at their local pub quiz, and think they would enjoy our quiz matches. Then wallop, they realise they can't answer every question, and are left feeling to some degree stupid. To compound this, we then list individual scores, which implicitly labels people "clever" or "thick" - this was why I recently questioned the continuance of the individual averages tables. I recall a conversation with a team recently, fairly new to the league, who have been "rewarded" with regular thrashings this season after being promoted to the top division last season. Add this to the desire of other second division teams to never get promoted, and there lies the problem.

6. The solution ? Well, how about all league matches based on a handicap system, as certain snooker/golf leagues are. Every team would therefore theoretically have an equal chance of winning the league/getting promotion/relegation, and so stop the monopoly of the same few teams winning all the trophies. Also, it would theoretically lead to close, exciting matches on a weekly basis.

Food for thought, maybe ?

Official Simon

Some interesting ideas here, some response:-

1. Yes, a lot of effort, but I for one would be keen on a Mastermind competition, despite my experience at the hands of J Carrey on the real one. Would depend entirely on a). enough entrants and b). enough question setters prepared to make that effort, but good idea in principle.

2. Bank holidays are just when they are, if you disagree with the playing three times as I know one person who did, then bring it to the AGM, but I do know there were some voices in favour as well, so a debate to be had. What do you mean bye weeks cost us all more money, nobody pays during bye weeks, they're free! You have 18 league games and pay for 18 league games, not the bye weeks. Maybe you didn't mean this as I am interpreting it, expand?

3. Thanks for the advert, and I am sure the Summer League will welcome new teams, but for your information Simon is not going to be League Secretary of the Summer League for many more days. I am resigning because of some financial issues over recent seasons of which I am sure the poster will be aware. Don't forget you heard it here first...

4. More teams - well of course we want more teams. We are confident there will be more teams next year. I personally know of one previous team that is coming back for sure (and we will approach the other lapsed team too, see what they think). We have had one or two enquiries from potential teams where geographical location might conceiveably be an issue and so their applications will be debated at the AGM. We also intend to pursue a vigourous recruiting campaign this summer also, which we don't every year and hopefully this may turn up one or two new ones too. We won't be wasting money on fruitless advertising either, that lesson has been learned.

So, all in all, there WILL be more teams next year. Hopefully we can revert to play twice, home and away, but anything's possible, all we try to do is provide a winter's worth of entertainment and competition for as many people as possible. I for one enjoyed the play thrice format, I know some others did too.

5. I don't agree that people don't join because of the high standard. They don't know about that when they join. We have two divisions and as they are of a greatly varying range of abilities, from very high to social, I think this is one of our League's big selling points and is also the reason why I personally would fight tooth and nail to retain at least two divisions, to retain that social culture. It's how we do it and it works, I see no reason for change. We also have a range of competitions to suit every ability. Not such expected teams have, over the years, been to the main Knockout Final, and one even won it, McGinty's Lions, who I think even they will agree that they were not red hot favourites at the start of the night!

6. Handicaps in all matches - nonsense idea. Peter, don't you recall about 3 or 4 years ago when Charlie Keith eventually managed to foist this idea onto the Summer League and went on so long about it that he got them to accept it, and then 99%, in fact even more, hated it and at the following AGM ditched it for the original format. I'm not even going to go into the full boring debate that there is to be reconducted about that, others can if they want but it's silly, end of. We have a Handicap Cup already, make do with that!
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peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

My point about Bank Holidays is that if we started the season earlier, they wouldn't interrupt our end-of-season finale.

I'm sure most people have been happy to play 15 league games this season. I am for sure. What I don't like are the bye weeks - a)we don't have a quiz b) it extends the league season (into the Bank Holidays (see above !) and c) it might cost us money. I don't know, so I'll ask "do we pay Darren a rate per quiz, so for this season, 18 weeks worth of league quzzes, even though teams only played 15 games" ? (Forgive me if I'm being a bit thick !!).

Again, forgive me if you told me about any financial irregularities with the Wakefield Summer League. If you did, I can't remember. Notwithstanding, this league is very strong, and I'm sure we (myself, Diddy, Andrew Lyman etc) will be playing again, so if you want to sample "Champions League" standard quiz matches, join. I'd guess that Barry & Diane will have a team again, as will the Crofton "Johns" !!

My memory is obviously on the wane, as I can't recall the "handicap league" idea in the Summer League from a few years ago. Why did it go wrong ?

Our Handicap Cup is the best event of the season. If we get the handicaps right, the format produces some brilliant matches. My idea of a good quiz match is one where the result is in doubt , both teams well matched, and goes down to the wire. Most Div. 1 matches this season have been decided before the last round. To me, this needs to be addressed, as the teams on the wrong end of these results tend to be the ones that get disillusioned, and pack in. The second division seems more evenly contested, but the teams "winning" promotion are to be rewarded with regular defeats the following season, as a handful of Div. 1 teams are now too strong.

It's not healthy to have the same few teams winning all the trophies, year in year out, and if it means that Flanagans don't pick up runners-up medals next season, so be it !! We'll still play, as I'm sure will The Wanderers, even if we have "losing seasons".

A quiz league is only as good as it's weakest link - a humourous pun, but take note - the Doncaster Quiz League was a thriving two-division league not too many years ago, and is now down to 4/5 teams, apparently. Simon will confirm (especially if I'm wrong !).

Official Simon · Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: Suggestions

However hard we try there'll always be at least an Easter and most probably Mayday in our season. I don't happen to think that disrupt is an accurate word, the bank holidays do seem to punctuate certain things quite neatly, like Cup semi-finals, the Handicap Cup etc and I'm sure people won't feel unduly punctuated as they do do things on our bank holidays as well! I do agree that 15 June is getting a bit late and that this needs to be addressed. Yes we pay a rate per quiz but that will easily be covered by the increased league fees this year). Earlier start is a reasonable idea and definitely not off the agenda.

We didn't play 15 league games over 18 weeks, we played 18 league games over 21 weeks. Some were against (well I remember 1 going on record as being against and 2 if you were Peter) and some were for, all to be debated at AGM, it was only because we only had 14 teams this year, possibly our lowest ever, which will be addressed. Bye weeks only come along with an odd number of teams in divisions, they aren't by design. We could think about something like maybe those good old interdivisional weeks that have popped up now and again over the years, or the bye teams to play each other, which is in fact an interdivisional match!

I personally think the play each other 3 times thing has worked well and been enjoyable as it gave us for instance specifically a chance to maybe overhaul Wanderers right up to the end instead of it being all over after we've lost twice to them. The only thing is that it wouldn't work with more than say 7 in a division as the season would be too long.

"Financial irregularities" is a completely mischievous and inaccurate phrase to use. There are no "financial irregularities" in the Summer League. Several teams owe me money personally from previous years and are refusing to pay simply because they can, which is why I am not prepared to carry on working for their benefit. You have had this explained to you in person before.

The Handicap Cup is a great event, but I think that a great deal of its appeal is its unique format. I am sure that if every match was like that then the appeal of handicap quizzing would quickly die, as it did when the Summer League tried the Handicap League (with the knockout competition being supplanted by an end-of-season Champions' League to determine the Champions) format in 2004 at Charlie Keith's pushing. The year after it was unanimously ditched at the AGM as boring, overcomplicated and artificially designed to stop "the same teams winning the trophies year after year" when quizzing is supposed to be about finding the best team, not handicapping them out the competition.

I suppose the idea of a good type of any sporting contest is well matched teams fighting it down to the wire, but that in the real world doesn't exist, not every week, it can't do because that's the nature of the competition, which is why football for example has four or five divisions, with good teams and not so good teams. Are you not bored to the back teeth with watching incessant Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea/Manchester United games on Sky week after week and then the Champions' League too? I know I am. The Handicap Cup is a format that gives lesser teams a chance, but to my way of thinking giving them a chance via handicapping every single week is not a way forward. Hopefully if and when this comes up at AGM the both leagues teams will furnish the debate with their opinions of the 2004 Summer League experiment.

You say that most Division One games have gone to the last round, so that's inferring that it's working? And then you say that the Second Division seems more evenly contested, which is pretty much the same statement, so doesn't that contradict the idea that there are too many thrashings going on? No it's not healthy to have the same teams winning all the trophies year in year out, but Wanderers only win 2 per year, if they win them. They don't win the Second Division, they don't win the Plate, they don't win the Handicap Cup and if Flanagan's have got anything to do with it they'll not win the Knockout Cup this year either! And by the way this season is the second time in their run that they've only won the Division One competition on points scored. They also don't win the individual competition an excessive amount, something which seems to get shared out a lot more randomly and another good reason not to abolish it. My opinion is that the number and configuration of competitions we have is just about right and provides good quizzing, competition and chances to win something for all the abilities in our league. One thing I do think is that there may be a case for an upward tweaking of the Second Division loading in the Handicap Cup.

One way of addressing the First Division paranoia thing to me is that I can in fact see the argument for giving the top two in Division Two the option of taking or declining promotion and as it happens it would also solve other problems we have had in recent years. Discuss (at AGM).

Apart from the opportunity of getting a good pun in, why is a quiz league only as good as its weakest link? In what way? What's the meaning of this sentence?

The Doncaster League is indeed down to 4 teams as it happens, a shocking state of affairs that has been allowed to develop by poor and indifferent management, non-existent effort at recruitment and a steadfast (ie stubborn) refusal to change on things like format, team numbers etc. It is really annoying, as when you look at the urban area of Doncaster, it should be bigger than our "smalltown" league, but its not. Maybe I should swap running the Wakefield Summer League for Doncaster, hmm, hang on...
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peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

A lengthy response, so here is a summary of my suggestions (as this is the heading of this thread).....
1. We can try harder to stop the league season running into the May Bank holidays - start the season earlier. Why do we start in October ?
2. Reduce bye weeks as much as possible - they cost each team money, and extend the season.
3. Set a date for the AGM early, and come armed with the knowledge of how many teams will be competing. We can then establish numbers for each division, a season start & finish date, number of bye weeks, etc
4. I can't remember why the Wakefield Summer League experiment with handicap league matches didn't work, but I know our Handicap Cup does, hence my suggestion as a way forward.

As you have admitted, having a predictable Top 4 in football is very unappealing. Being lucky enough to play for one of the top teams, I would welcome having to play "catch up" during most matches. I'm sure The Wanderers would too - at present, they can win matches even if three, or even two, of them turn up.

I said that most Div. 1 games did NOT go to the last round. Please re-read. Hence, it's not working in Div. 1.

Your solution of letting the top 2 teams in Div. 2 decline promotion is ridiculous. What about the bottom 2 in Div 1 ? This season, the bottom 2 in Div. 1 have won two matches each. Should they be forced to stay in Div. 1,and therefore face the same prospect next season ?

As a league, we should be looking after the interests of all teams (the weakest links, if you like), not just the top teams. If The Wanderers, or Flanagans, don't win any trophies next season, I'm pretty sure they won't sulk and pack in. From what The Gaping Goose were saying a month ago, they were seriously thinking about packing in this season, so the prospect of another season in Div 1. might just make their minds up.

The number of competitons we have is perfect. The quiz format itself is perfect. However, the only competition the all teams have an equal chance of winning is the Handicap Cup - oh, and nice to see you're now a convert to awarding the second division teams a bigger start, as you have been the biggest opponent to this suggestion for 3 years !

Remember, I have made these suggestions in the interests of the league as a whole.

Andrew Lyman · Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject:

Cutting and pasting, so I don't know how this will look...

1991/92 Junction Hightown Hotel
1992/93 Station Hotel Junction
1993/94 Station Hotel Junction
1994/95 Station Hotel Cartners Arms
1995/96 Garden House A Station Hotel
1996/97 New Junction Station Hotel
1997/98 Weavers Green Station Hotel
1998/99 Weavers Green Smawthorne Lane WMC
1999/00 Hope & Anchor New Junction
2000/01 Lee Brigands Squash Club Kings
2001/02 Lee Brigands Darrington Hotel Kings
2002/03 Lee Brigands Darrington Hotel Kings
2003/04 Lee Brigands Top House Officials
2004/05 Black Bull Windward Brigands
2005/06 Mill House Top House Officials
2006/07 Parksiders Lee Brigands
2007/08 Wanderers Flanagan's

Oh, better than I expected.

With the exception of the black script, the teams in the same colour above are basically the same team.
The recent dominance of Barry and Diane's team(s) is not without precedent in the league. Before them, it was the Lee Brigands team of Steve Stenton and Chris Jones - before that the Weavers' Green (now playing out of Crofton WMC), before that a three-cornered fight between The Junction, the Station and whichever team Christine Szmyt and David Smith played for.
What I guess I'm saying is that there have always been teams that are head and shoulders above the pack, and by the same token there will always have been teams who bobbed along winning division 2 and spent a year getting tubbed in division 1 prior to dropping again and winning division 2.....'twas ever thus.

Edited to fit in with Simon's pedantry below - also edited to correct the 'twas typo.

Official Simon · Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject:

I would dispute that Flanagan's are the same team as Top House Officials. There is only me from the Top House Officials FTQL version, the rest are Flanagan's Dudes who moved to the Top House minus Mr Dude for reasons known. Top House Officials were myself, Ray Kendrew, David Smith and at different times, Stuart and Helen Topps, Lorne Mosley (remember him...), John Seeley, and for a very short time David Woodward.
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The worst ever contestant in the history of Mastermind...apparently

Andrew Lyman · Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject:

As for some other points, remember that at the AGM this year we had sixteen teams, with 'feelers' being put out for another two or three. It was only when nothing came of the 'feelers' and we lost the Lee Brigg and Rustic Arms that we were down to 14. The season would have ended in the second week of March if everyone played everyone else twice. Too soon, I'm sure you'll agree - that is why we made it all-play-all three times, adding a further seven weeks to the season, which then took in three Bank Holiday Mondays and led to the finish in mid-June. Again, the decision was taken because we were looking to provide a full season's quizzing for all.

We start in October because Simon runs the Summer League up to the end of September. Obviously, that won't be an issue this year....

I'm with Simon on the subject of handicaps in league matches. I wasn't playing in the Summer League in 2004, so have no first hand experience, but it just doesn't feel right. The league is there to be won by the best teams, not on the vagaries of a handicap.

With odd numbers of teams in the league, there are bye weeks. The only way around is to have odd numbers of teams in each league and the two bye-teams play each other. Good luck to whichever second division team is paired with the Wanderers.....
But the way we pay for the quizzes is per game, so for each game you play the league wants £4 off you. If you play 18 games, as we did this year, the league wants £72. If there are three bye-weeks, the league still only wants £72. Now if you're good enough (or lucky enough) to reach the latter stages of the cup competitions, you'll pay more as it is still £4 per game.

As for the second division handicaps, remember they were set at +5pts when we had three individual rounds, with 3/2/1/1 scoring. Now there are only two individual rounds, with 2/2/1/1 scoring, the handicaps may be sufficient.
My personal opinion is that the debate about handicap starts for division 2 teams is a bit of a red herring, and it depends more on the standard of quiz that is set. If the quiz is pitched at a high level, you would expect the first division team to score heavily and the second division team to struggle, and the handicap to be made up quickly and the first division team to pull away. If the quiz is made too easy, the first division team will never pick up enough points in bonuses to overhaul the handicap. I think that both Darren and Simon deserve a great deal of credit for the success of the Handicap Cup - Darren for pitching his quizzes at just the right level and Simon for sorting out the handicap system as it is.

Official Simon · Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: Suggestions

1. I have said that starting earlier is not off the agenda, perfectly possible.
2. How do bye weeks cost teams money? Repeat, you don't pay for bye weeks.
3. Point taken, will have AGM earlier, but how can you come along knowing exactly how many teams are in? Only a general idea is possible.
4. Summer League didn't work simply because teams decided after a single year of it that they didn't like it because direct comment was made "it's about finding the best team, not handicapping them out of the competition". In my opinion, Handicap Cup works because it's different, not the same as everything else. And making the whole thing handicap means abolition of the Handicap Cup as the Knockout and Plate will superimpose over it and be the same competition twice.
5. Promotion/relegation - point taken but this is for debate, not just between me and you.
6. Apologies for reading comment about Division One games NOT going to last round, point taken.

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

.........further suggestions then.......
How about setting the precedent then that the first league match of the season should always be the first Monday in October, from now on ? We would therefore all know where we stand, rather than the AGM and the league season just "evolving". This would then give us a good run of a dozen or so weeks up to Christmas, and so hopefully allow the season to finish before the May Bank Holidays. This also puts a definite date on the AGM, and the Charity Shield night. This being the case, the AGM should provide a deadline for teams joining/leaving, so we can then debate with some certainty over numbers in each division, promotion, relegation, bye weeks etc.

To clear up this "cost of bye weeks" issue, if we pay Darren a rate per quiz (e.g. £20, for sake of argument), this season we have paid him £20 x 21 weeks (=£420), but with 3 bye weeks, we have only played 18 league games each, therefore only getting £360 worth of quizzes. It doesn't really matter whether the league charges each team £2, £3 or £4 per team per quiz, we're not getting full value for money.

Is this right, or am I being thick ?

Official Simon · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject:

I think I see now what you're saying about bye weeks, but I think it's a cock-eyed way to look at it. Each individual team plays 18 league matches, each individual team pays 18 x £4, simple!

"Bye weeks" occur for individual teams. "Quizzes" (and therefore "Weeks"), are for and are paid for, for the whole league and "bye weeks" only occur because of the number of teams in divisions. I can't see the thought process to connect one to the other? Sounds like it may possibly go under the heading of "one way of looking at it", or put another way "spin".

And before you mention putting unequal numbers of teams in the divisions, it's an opinion, but I can see that then people will start complaining about not having the same number of matches as other people. I think Neil Aspland brought something like this up once didn't he? I'm not in favour (unless it's unavoidable due to an odd number of total teams in the league).
_________________
The worst ever contestant in the history of Mastermind...apparently

Andrew Lyman · Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject:

Credit where it's due, it was Keith King who mentioned this at an AGM - having (iirc) a six-team Division One and a 12-team Division Two in which all played all four times and twice respectively. It was voted out as 'unnecessarily complicated'.

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

A flurry of activity, now that the footy's finished !

I'm happy to have this debate at the AGM, but in order for this to happen, it's critical to know how many teams we're talking about, and not "maybes" and "feelers out" for extra teams. A definite date would help, I'm sure, and to treat it as a deadline.

The handicap league is only a suggestion, a reaction against the trend of individuals and teams becoming disaffected, and so packing in. Yes, the league has always produced dominant teams ('twas ever thus indeed !), but my feeling is that this has become more and more exaggerated. Is this good for the league ? I don't know, but again I'm happy to have the point debated, and solutions explored.

Andrew Lyman · Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:39 am Post subject:

Fair enough, Peter. As I've said elsewhere, now Simon is not involved in the running of the Wakefield Summer League, it may free up a little more of his time to get involved in promotion of our league in the close season.

However.....

As Simon has stated upthread, we have had a 'sniff' from somewhere outside our normal league area who do seem quite keen. Acceptance (or otherwise) of this team we feel is a matter for the AGM. Historically we have always called the league 'catchment area' to be a 10 mile radius circle drawn around Jn32 of the M62 (Simon, I'm doing this from memory so feel free to post any corrections you see fit). Do we want to go further?? Rewrite the eligibility rules?? If, by extending the area to...ooh, let's say 20 miles...we could get 12 more teams would we want to do this?? If so, is it worth having Division One and 'Division Two East' and 'Division Two West'? All worthy questions that need a debate, I'm sure you'll agree - and all questions that would prevent us from attending AGM with a final, definitive list of which teams are playing in the upcoming season.

The alternative is to leave the call to the committee and allow AGM to simply rubber stamp the decision. That's what has happened in the past, and has led to the acceptance of places like The Barnsley Oak (13.8mi).

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

New team(s), from outside the catchment area. Interesting stuff indeed.

At least, it is for me, but to be honest, after a week or so of suggestions and ideas, I'm very disappointed that nobody else, other than Andrew and Simon, have been interested enough to put forward their viewpoints.

I didn't kick-start this thread to score cheap points, but hoped to put forward ideas that would spark debate, in order to improve our quiz league. To save money, to raise extra money (Simon, the thread about Finals Night ?), to make quiz nights more competitive and more fun, and ultimately strengthen the FTQL.

We have 30 registered users for this forum, and this thread has been viewed plenty of times, but seemingly nobody else has an opinion. Strange.

BrianMc · Quiz Virgin Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 24

Official Simon · Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject:

peterpotato · Team Captain Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 101

Maybe some people just like watching..........

Maybe I shouldn't give a rat's a**e, and fall into line.........

Maybe I should just say "I told you so" in 3 years time.......

Maybe it'll make it alright if I just put a Wink

in here......

Deborah Aspland · Quiz Virgin Joined: 17 May 2008 Posts: 35

Hiya Pete,

Neil & I are bothered but we have been away for a few days for our first anniversary and have come back to a flurry of postings.

I am sure Neil will put on his own posting once he has worked his way through them all.

It's quite time consumming taking it all in -and I may not have understood it all correctly however...in my opinion:

I have long wanted the season to start in October (it has done before). I have also argued for a date to be set for the AGM by the end of the previous season, not thrown together a couple of weeks before when people may have already planned other things (some of us do have lives outside quizland!). I am sure that Brenda wont mind me saying that she has not been happy when the AGM has been while she has been on holiday.

Personally, I do not want to play Bank Holidays as I make other arrangements.

Re-bye weeks: If these are inevitable then you could visit other teams that are playing. I am sure that some would appreciate having a scorer or a question-reader if they are short-handed. Alternatively, ask the committee if you can play the team in division 2 who also have a bye. Once we have the calendar for the season I am sure that this could be arranged if the other teams are willing. I used to enjoy the inter-divisional games we used to have.

Although I would not relish being in Division 1 I would still take on the challenge. That's part of the game as far as I see it. I would not like the idea of handicaps unless in the handicap cup.

Mastermind is a good idea but don't get rid of the Pairs please. To me, the Pairs and the handicap cup competition is the highlight of the season. More so than the Finals Night.

I would love to see the return of the Programme at Finals night. I miss it and it brings in revenue.

Bringing teams in from other areas? I am not sure -as yet- it depends on the geography I guess. I would like the possible team to be announced before the AGM so it can be pondered on beforehand. It would be nice to have an agenda for the AGM a couple of weeks before as my main criticsm of last year's AGM was that some points were rushed through. Sometimes things need more than a few seconds thinking time.

Hope that is ok Pete. Smile

If I think of anything else I will get back to you

Oh -and Pete- the Wink

worked for me. lol

Debby